Tomorrow is the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Buchenwald. The BBC has a photo gallery as a memorial. It's a timely reminder of what John Tamihere is "sick and tired" of hearing about.
It is foolish to march straight into the trap laid by the investigate editor just because you dont like tamihere. Tamihere was saying he was tired of hearing about how many jews died in the same sense that people who protest israels settlements might say the same thing. the investigate journalist actually said that on the radio last night. And admited he was angry and basically admitted he did it to get revenge on tamihere because he felt he and Clarke were insulting his integrity (which I guess they were).
Anyway I am one of the most active opponants of Holocaust denial (cant tell you how many hours I have spent ripping apart peoples arguments) and yet even I could get irritated by people like the jewish council jumping down peoples thoats going on about how many people died.
When they stop using it as a lesson from history and instead cynically as a stick to beat people they discredit the position I spend so much time trying to defend.
I note che seems to have already hinted at this point.
In answer to your question about slight twinges. Yes, absolutely. Frequently. And you can find a lot of that sort of talk on the right-wing US blogosphere in particular. But that shouldn't diminish the efforts of the rest of us, i.e. non-Israelis, to ensure that the memory of the holocaust is kept alive as a stark reminder to ensure that it can never happen again. Right?
But do the Jewish Council, or Jews in New Zealand in general, "go on" about it, really?
We do pop our heads up when people deny or minimise, because we know that Holocaust deniers' strategy is incremental. But you can go months, or indeed years, without national stories on this topic.
Furthermore, we wouldn't need to mention it at all in public, let alone go on about it, were it not for people who want to pretend it did not happen.
In the context of the original interview, the question is about being focussed on the injustices of the past. Maybe Tamihere is right, in a funny sort of way. Maori have the same interest in remembering the experience of being colonised as Jews do in remembering the Holocaust, namely that preserving the memory inconveniences the political projects of people who would rather forget.
the other che: Jews and Israelis are not equivalent groups. Eg, I am a Jew, but not an Israeli. Furthermore, Israelis are not a monolithic group, and there is great dissent in Israel about what proper behaviour towards the Palestinians is. Finally, what does that have to do with Tamihere anyway? Isn't that a bit lateral of you?
Just curious.
genius: where's the cynicism in the Jewish council's statements? Point it out, please.
O lordy. Yeah, real Russians would never have done that to each other without Jews telling them to. Is that what you're trying to say? If so, please say so. If not, then why does it matter? (By the way, don't forget Lenin's mum).
"yet even mentioning these simple historical facts is now deemed to be in bad taste or "anti-Semitic"."
Deemed by whom? Where? Straw man, mate.
Mentioning these facts is not anti-semitic. I freely acknowledge, without any shame, that there were disproportionately many Jewish Bolsheviks, for example - as you would expect. However, pointing to them as evidence that Jews in general are up to no good is anti-semitic. Pointing to them without pointing out any other groups is especially suss. I mean, does it bother you that Stalin was a Georgian? That must make Georgians really bad, yes?
Let me just point out that here we have a classic case of victim blaming. JT is an offensive twat, but somehow, it's our fault for being offended. Somehow, I lost my right to be upset about the mass-murder of my cousins because of Beria. That's your logic, yes?
See, che, genius, this is the company you're keeping.
I've posted on this also. If you're interested, my post is here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.tblog.com/templates/index.php?bid=berlinbear&static=437677
It is foolish to march straight into the trap laid by the investigate editor just because you dont like tamihere.
ReplyDeleteTamihere was saying he was tired of hearing about how many jews died in the same sense that people who protest israels settlements might say the same thing.
the investigate journalist actually said that on the radio last night. And admited he was angry and basically admitted he did it to get revenge on tamihere because he felt he and Clarke were insulting his integrity (which I guess they were).
Anyway I am one of the most active opponants of Holocaust denial (cant tell you how many hours I have spent ripping apart peoples arguments) and yet even I could get irritated by people like the jewish council jumping down peoples thoats going on about how many people died.
When they stop using it as a lesson from history and instead cynically as a stick to beat people they discredit the position I spend so much time trying to defend.
I note che seems to have already hinted at this point.
To Che:
ReplyDeleteIn answer to your question about slight twinges. Yes, absolutely. Frequently. And you can find a lot of that sort of talk on the right-wing US blogosphere in particular. But that shouldn't diminish the efforts of the rest of us, i.e. non-Israelis, to ensure that the memory of the holocaust is kept alive as a stark reminder to ensure that it can never happen again. Right?
But do the Jewish Council, or Jews in New Zealand in general, "go on" about it, really?
ReplyDeleteWe do pop our heads up when people deny or minimise, because we know that Holocaust deniers' strategy is incremental. But you can go months, or indeed years, without national stories on this topic.
Furthermore, we wouldn't need to mention it at all in public, let alone go on about it, were it not for people who want to pretend it did not happen.
In the context of the original interview, the question is about being focussed on the injustices of the past. Maybe Tamihere is right, in a funny sort of way. Maori have the same interest in remembering the experience of being colonised as Jews do in remembering the Holocaust, namely that preserving the memory inconveniences the political projects of people who would rather forget.
the other che: Jews and Israelis are not equivalent groups. Eg, I am a Jew, but not an Israeli. Furthermore, Israelis are not a monolithic group, and there is great dissent in Israel about what proper behaviour towards the Palestinians is. Finally, what does that have to do with Tamihere anyway? Isn't that a bit lateral of you?
Just curious.
genius: where's the cynicism in the Jewish council's statements? Point it out, please.
"organised largely by men with Jewish names."
ReplyDeleteO lordy. Yeah, real Russians would never have done that to each other without Jews telling them to. Is that what you're trying to say? If so, please say so. If not, then why does it matter? (By the way, don't forget Lenin's mum).
"yet even mentioning these simple historical facts is now deemed to be in bad taste or "anti-Semitic"."
Deemed by whom? Where? Straw man, mate.
Mentioning these facts is not anti-semitic. I freely acknowledge, without any shame, that there were disproportionately many Jewish Bolsheviks, for example - as you would expect. However, pointing to them as evidence that Jews in general are up to no good is anti-semitic. Pointing to them without pointing out any other groups is especially suss. I mean, does it bother you that Stalin was a Georgian? That must make Georgians really bad, yes?
(Wikipedia on this subject for the interested.)
Let me just point out that here we have a classic case of victim blaming. JT is an offensive twat, but somehow, it's our fault for being offended. Somehow, I lost my right to be upset about the mass-murder of my cousins because of Beria. That's your logic, yes?
See, che, genius, this is the company you're keeping.