An Israeli airstrike has reportedly killed 40 civilians in the village of Houla in South Lebanon. No doubt we'll soon see the Israeli military spindoctors claiming that they were "terrorist" women and "terrorist" children, huddled in "terrorist" basements - but the blunt fact remains that yet another airstrike has, with perfect accuracy, slaughtered large numbers of civilians without a dead guerilla in sight. While accidents happen, Israel is making too many of them for it to be anything other than a systematic and callous disregard for civilian lives - in other words, a war crime.
Update: The death toll has now been revised down to one, after 50 people were found alive under the rubble. So, not a massacre, but a very near thing - and you still have to ask why the hell the IAF was bombing these people in the first place. Blind, impotent rage at not being able to find real targets...?
Lets see if the initial number of dead goes through a 50% reduction as in Qana shall we? But is the number of dead really the issue?
ReplyDeleteThe IDF makes mistakes that can be legitimately criticized - they admit as much themselves. But where do they state that every person remaining in Sth. Leb. is a terrorist? I have never seen this, I think you are making shit up. They do admit that civillians will get killed due to the way Hezbollah operate - one of their war crimes you seem to fail to notice.
Have you made any mention of any of the Israeli deaths? Any Lebanese civillian death is instantly labelled a war crime, yet every hour the Hezbollah are aiming at and wounding or killing civillians, just another of their war crimes you seem quite content to support. How can you be expected to be taken seriously with such blantant support of death?
Does it not mean something that in Israel there are the pilots who think twice before they bomb, that every week there are anti-war demonstrations in Tel Aviv, that there are those who question the affect the military actions have on the moral of the society, despite being under attack, in a war intiated by the other side? And the voice of peace from the Arabs is where, exactly?
The lack of perspective and ease with which the left tends to fall victim to the Arab PR machine makes me think, so why should I give a shit?
Lets see if the initial number of dead goes through a 50% reduction as in Qana shall we?
ReplyDeleteOkay, we'll see
But is the number of dead really the issue?
I think the death of innocent civilians is a concern, yes.
But where do they state that every person remaining in Sth. Leb. is a terrorist? I have never seen this, I think you are making shit up.
"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah," Mr Ramon said. (That's Israeli Justice Minister Ramon.)
from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5219360.stm
Have you made any mention of any of the Israeli deaths?
From what I've heard about 40 Israeli civilians and 60 Israeli soldiers have died. At least 500 Lebanese have died, many of whom had nothing to do with Hezbollah. It's not really about body counts, but it's also not not about body counts.
And the voice of peace from the Arabs is where, exactly?
Lots of Arab leaders have condemned Hezbollah.
Please do learn and think more about the issue so that when it is discussed you at least have your facts straight.
Death toll revised down from 40, to 1.
ReplyDeleteDeath toll revised down from 40, to 1.
ReplyDeleteYes, by sheer good fortune it appears. Unlike in Qana, the shelter under the ruined building held, and the 50 people down there weren't crushed to death. It doesn't really change anything with respect to attacks on civilian dwellings though, does it?
Cheers,
RB
Why does everyone posting nasty unfeeling things about the Israel/Lebanon business do it anonymously? You can tell if something's going to be anonymous as soon as you read the first line of the comment on these posts.
ReplyDeleteWhy does everyone posting nasty unfeeling things about the Israel/Lebanon business do it anonymously?
ReplyDeleteIf you’re referring to my post, it was genuinely intended to inform those that don’t click through to the updated BBC page prior to I/S updating the blog entry.
It doesn't really change anything with respect to attacks on civilian dwellings though, does it?
No it doesn’t. Sad state of affairs indeed. Again, it wasn’t meant to come across as supporting some rightist world-view.
Although tragic, civilian casualties in Lebanon are the moral responsibility of the aggressors in this war - i.e. Hezbollah. They are not Israel's moral responsibility.
ReplyDeleteduncan wrote...
ReplyDeleteAlthough tragic, civilian casualties in Lebanon are the moral responsibility of the aggressors in this war - i.e. Hezbollah. They are not Israel's moral responsibility.
While certainly Hezbollah has to take *some* responsibility for the casualties, that does not absolve Israel of responsibility. Israel is morally responsible for its own actions.
It's also arguable whether Hezbollah is the agressor.
Duncan: why not? They're the people killing them.
ReplyDeleteIf someone responded to an attempt to murder them by whipping out an AK-47 and spraying bullets around indiscriminately, killing not only their assailant, but also ten innocent bystanders, there is no question that we would regard them as morally culpable for the deaths, and they would be in jail for a very long time (and not just on firearms charges). But that is exactly how Israel is responding to Hizbollah.
"Self defence" still only allows proportionate force. Hizbollah's attacks on Israel are not a licence for Israel to engage in indiscriminate murder.
Constantly witnessing this "Self defence" argument regarding the middle east conflicts makes me furious.
ReplyDeleteThe argument of "Self defence" becomes invalid when you are fighting people outside of your own territory.
Pre-emptive war is NOT self defense.
Fighting them "over there" so we do not have to fight them "over here" is NOT self-defense.
Having the most sophisticated weapon systems in the world and taking out such a dispoportionally high number of civilian casualties is NOT self defense.
Deliberately targetting civillian areas is NOT self defense. It is morally inexcusable and it violates the Geneva convention and it is a WAR CRIME.
The argument about having to target civilian areas because the so-called "terrorists" (which I regard as resistance fighters) are using civilians as a human shield is utter bollocks.
If you bother to read any of the independent news reports coming out of Lebanon (which is obvious that you US and Israeli apologists do not) you will read that the ordinary people of Southern Lebanon go out of their way to avoid being in the vicinity of anything that remotely resembles a Hezbollah stronghold (including any vehicle that looks like it could have a rocket launched from it, and even the local garbage collection trucks) for fear of becoming targets.
I am absolutely certain that the people of Lebanon are not so stupid as to let themselves be used as a human shield or place themselves anywhere near Hezbollah resistance fighters where they and their families might be harmed in the crossfire.
People like sid need to stop reading biased western news sources like Fox News and educate themselves with some independent news sources that report the real facts of the other side of the conflict, from both it's current and historical perspective.
Hezbollah are clearly not innocents in this conflict, but I have zero tolerance for people who defend state-sponsored terrorism operating under the banner of "self-defense" and say it is justified, or that those of us who oppose the methods of Israel and the US in the middle east are somehow "deluded leftwing idiots".
Whatever you think about myself or other protesters of this violence, the facts speak very clearly that Israel's and the US's fighting methods in the middle east are not working and have only served to bolster public support for resistance groups like Hezbollah and Hamas in both the Arab and Western world.
Have you ever stopped to ponder that radicalising and demonising the Arab peoples by their own hostile actions (or shameful inaction) in these crises (and linking all the regions so-called "terrorists" to Iran) plays very nicely into the US's grand plan to control the middle east and it's oil reserves?
You don't have to subscribe to any so-called "Arab propoganda machine" to see through the bullshit and bias of the western corporate media and the rightwing US propoganda machine it has enslaved itself to.
And you don't have to be some kind of leftwing nut to know that killing in the name of anybody's political ideology is the height of human ignorance.
The point I was trying to make is that bombing of such dwellings is tragic, but you have no proof that it was a deliberate targeting, as oppossed to a mistake. Despite this, there is no restraint in crying WAR CRIME at every possible opportunity towards Israel. What really annoys me is that the Hezbollah do deliberately targert civillians, by their own admission, but most appear to let this go as justified. It doesnt matter what action Isreal takes, they will recieve the highest criticism. It doesnt matter how evil Hezbollah are, you let them go. This leaves no room for genuine criticism of Isreal when it is warranted. With such a bigotted attiutude, why should one share your concerns? At least I have equal feeling, (or is it disdain?), for death on either side. Freedom fighters? Freedom from what, may I ask? The voice of Arab leaders is not the voice of a peace movement, it is lip service, and the recognition that the strengthening of radiacal Islamic movements posses a threat to their own Western backed regimes. Think about it.
ReplyDeleteI have never read Fox news. I get my information mainly from Ha'aretz.
No it is not about self defense, I agree. It is a war intended to prevent the same thing happening again, and again, and again, as long as Hezbollah is allowed to sit on the border and, without justification, threaten and attack Israel. It appears that finally the Lebanese govt is starting to see this, and are prepared to put their own army in there. Maybe Isreal's tactics, which for a while now I have not actually fully supported, might have actually achieved something.
> The argument of "Self defence" becomes invalid when you are fighting people outside of your own territory.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli counter to that is that either you are saying that as long as they shoot their missiles from within israel it is OK (they could work with that - but they would probably kill more people).
OR
Hezbollah has declared war with them.
> you will read that the ordinary people of Southern Lebanon go out of their way to avoid being in the vicinity of anything that remotely resembles a Hezbollah stronghold
I expect they do, I probably would also, but if a felow shoots a rocket from the apartment above mine what can I do? suddenly run out into the street with my baby?
> Israel's and the US's fighting methods in the middle east are not working
Indeed
> Have you ever stopped to ponder that radicalising and demonising the Arab peoples by their own hostile actions (or shameful inaction) in these crises (and linking all the regions so-called "terrorists" to Iran) plays very nicely into the US's grand plan to control the middle east and it's oil reserves?
It doesn't really. It does make money for some opec countries and some oil companies of course, but in terms of strategy for the US its a total bust.
Genius, I was reading an article a few days ago about the rockets that Hezbollah are firing across the border (sorry I can't find the link right now but will post it here when I do) and they cannot be launched from "the apartment upstairs" - so that line of justification by the Israeli army is void.
ReplyDeleteThey are rockets which must be launched from out in the open with clear space around them when they discharge - from mobile missile launchers (this is apparently why the Israelis have been blowing up any old garbage or delivery trucks that might possibly be a mobile launcher). If launched from inside an enclosed space or building those particular rockets would blow up everyone inside the room and the back wall of the building to boot. I cannot believe the Israeli defence force does not know this.
Also, independent Human Rights investigators report that they are finding no traces of dead Hezbollah fighters or Hezbollah weaponry remnants at any of the residential buildings where numbers of civilians have been killed by Israeli missile attacks, which further places the blame at their feet for excessive innocent civilian deaths IMO.
I'm not defending Hezbollah firing rockets into civilian Israeli territory either. Neither of their actions can legitmately be regarded as an act of self-defense and there's no excuse for either side targetting civilian areas. I'm just angrier at the Israeli side because their military might is infinitely more powerful than Hezbollah and they are taking infinitely more civilian lives in spite of their supposedly more sophisticated targeting systems.
And quite frankly I am just sick to death of justifications from either side and it pisses me off so much to see yet more fodder for radicalising the moderate muslim world. I hate the way this plays into the US war on terror crusade and I hate the way I am seeing the lives of innocent Lebanese and Palestinians be given a lesser value in the world political arena than those of Israeli lives.
I just hate war period. If I had my way I would disarm the entire worlds military and ship all the fuckin politicians, religious and tribal leaders off to a desert island to fight it out among themselves with sticks and stones.
Now that would make better viewing for a reality TV show than some crappy Celebrity Treasure Island series don't you think?
And quite frankly I am just sick to death of justifications from either side and it pisses me off so much to see yet more fodder for radicalising the moderate muslim world. I hate the way this plays into the US war on terror crusade and I hate the way I am seeing the lives of innocent Lebanese and Palestinians be given a lesser value in the world political arena than those of Israeli lives.
ReplyDeleteI just hate war period. If I had my way I would disarm the entire worlds military and ship all the fuckin politicians, religious and tribal leaders off to a desert island to fight it out among themselves with sticks and stones.
Now that would make better viewing for a reality TV show than some crappy Celebrity Treasure Island series don't you think?
Ditto!!!!!