Monday, October 23, 2006



Why the masks?

There's been some comment about why those protesting against the National Front on Saturday were hiding their faces. The answer is RedWatch - a neo-Nazi website established to "build a catalogue of information and pictures of the Left". This includes names, addresses, phone numbers, and pictures of where people live. While there is the odd disclaimer, the purpose of the site is clearly to encourage violence against those listed. For example, a collection of pictures on the recent Peace Action protest against the weapons conference at Te Papa exhorted readers to

Remember these faces for they are anti-New Zealand and anti-White. These people are your enemy.

In the UK, a similar site has led to a series of violent attacks on journalists, protestors, and others who speak out against racism. These have included stabbings, beatings, and fire-bombings. RedWatch New Zealand is explicitly modelled on this site, and its clear intent is to provoke at least the fear of similar attacks by nazi thugs here. Against this background, I can't really blame anyone for taking precautions.

36 comments:

They've been stupid enough to put it on Blogspot?? They'll have to spend a bit more cash and try a little harder, methinks. The site clearly contravenes the TOC of blogspot and I've reported this. I suggest other also contact blogspot/Google and cvomplain and get them shutdown.

Posted by Sanctuary : 10/23/2006 02:50:00 PM

Can't agree more with sanctuary:

FYI:
The Blogger ToS is at http://www.blogger.com/terms.g

The page to complain is http://help.blogger.com/?page=troubleshooter.cs&problem=&contact_type=TOS&Submit=Submit&skiplogin=yes

Posted by James : 10/23/2006 05:24:00 PM

I think you'll find that they're completely safe on Blogspot for the moment. In fact if you notice one of the posts actively encourages other racists to get similar websites on Blogspot and start writing, because Google protects their right to hate speech.

I have a feeling that Nic Miller's site only scratches the surface of fascist and racist use of Google's blogging service - note the same company is only too happy to censor for the Chinese government...

Quite some effort has gone in to removing the site - to absolutely no avail.

It would be quite good Idiot/Savant if you considered removing the link to his site, he doesn't need any more attention.

Posted by Anonymous : 10/23/2006 06:23:00 PM

Anon: I'd debated whether to link to them or not, but I think the site has to be seen to be believed.

Posted by Idiot/Savant : 10/23/2006 06:58:00 PM

typically, they don't get it over at kiwiblog...

Posted by Anonymous : 10/23/2006 07:08:00 PM

They have the right to express themselves.

If that expression offends or intimidates people then don't click on the link.

Do they use the site for illegal activity? or to expressly encourage illegal activity? Or to excite disaffection against Her Majesty's Government perhaps?

I think our country is mature enough to manage robust criticism. This is of course, not to condone harassment of individuals.

Feel free to change my mind.

Posted by james cairney : 10/23/2006 09:42:00 PM

The site does incite harassment of individuals - in fact that is its full purpose.

They do encourage illegal activity - they say otherwise, but their intent is very clear. I have no doubt that left unchecked, this site will wind up with someone getting killed.

I agree we should engage in robust citistism, but this site isn't doing any such thing. It's harassment,hate speech and it's goal is to shut down views they don't agree with (at the very least...)

I don't understand what "typically, they don't get it over at kiwiblog..." means exactly, but here and at kiwiblog are people critising each other, which is a good thing. I certainly dont agree with everything, but I have the right, they should too.

& p.s that link i posted didn't quite work, but highlighting and copying the text will get you to the right place. They breach the blogspot TOS 4a) 4i) and 4k), and potentially breach 4h).

Posted by James : 10/23/2006 11:24:00 PM

Hi James,

I realise in the name of tolerance we should not tolerate the intolerant.

However, define hate-speech, then apply it to some postings over at kiwiblog.

I think these jerks should simply be ignored, rather than shut down, to shut them down would (in my opinion) set a dangerous precedent.

How would you define hate speech, and how would you avoid an unsatisfactory infringement of free expresssion? (by shutting them down to pre-empt a crime that is).

peace
james c

Posted by james cairney : 10/24/2006 12:23:00 AM

James C: I agree - which is why I haven't called for them to be closed down. While I lothe them and what they are doing, and I think they are trying to encourage violence against those they list, they have not crossed the line yet into outright incitement, and there have been no crimes that I am aware of linked to the site. That said, I cannot blame those listed or likely to be listed for taking precautions against appearing on this hit list.

Posted by Idiot/Savant : 10/24/2006 01:10:00 AM

james c, i agree with your principles. absolutely i do.

but.

a few years back one of my brothers was beaten within an inch of his life by neo-nazis. and i mean that literally, not metaphorically.

so while they aren't harming anyone with their site, they are violent, hateful people. to me their sites are merely a precursor to violence, because they have an established history of violence.

if you set up an anti-semtic site i would give you the benefit of the doubt, because i have no proof you are violent or dangerous.

these sons of bitches tho?

Posted by che tibby : 10/24/2006 08:04:00 AM

james c, i agree with your principles. absolutely i do.

but.

a few years back one of my brothers was beaten within an inch of his life by neo-nazis. and i mean that literally, not metaphorically.

so while they aren't harming anyone with their site, they are violent, hateful people. to me their sites are merely a precursor to violence, because they have an established history of violence.

if you set up an anti-semtic site i would give you the benefit of the doubt, because i have no proof you are violent or dangerous.

these sons of bitches tho?

Posted by che tibby : 10/24/2006 08:04:00 AM

I/S: The tag line they use - "We hate the Jews" given the context of the site was enough for me.

Posted by Sanctuary : 10/24/2006 08:39:00 AM

Queue the DomPost editorial about critics of this site being "petty and vindictive". It seems letting the anti-democratic anit-NZ "core values" folks get off sotch free from comment is because free speach trumps all our other hard fought for rights.

If someone attacks our democracy they deserve all the vilification coming their way. DPF, here is the public, extreme, face of many who comment on your site and many who find succour Brash's Orewa speaches.

Posted by noddy : 10/24/2006 09:49:00 AM

Hi che,

The line between the expression on the site in question, and any definition of hate speech, will be inevitably blurred.

If you can provide a hate speech definition that could not, for example, be applied to certain posters at (for example) kiwiblog, then there might be a case, I accept that. Such laws, while often well intended, are however prone to abuse at the hands of the govt of the day (the sedition fiasco's of late are testimony to that).

Furthermore, the use of terms such as 'they are all violent', could (and is) applied by many to certain other groups within society, and I do not believe it is helpful, or even completely accurate.

All said and done however, at first glance I completely agree that the site is for the unsavoury purposes claimed by you and others, yet it is defining it as such (without recourse to internal prejudice and historical knowledge) that I struggle with. If you can paint it as such then I'm all ears (well, eyes). Less than that I do not believe it could be safely shut down, in terms of free expression that is.

peace,
james

Posted by james cairney : 10/24/2006 09:52:00 AM

This website made me feel sick and afraid. In one sense I pity these men (and they seem to be only men) but on the other hand they are so cruel I don't know if anyone could ever get through to them.

But... I don't want to see their horrible website banned, for a start it would add to their feelings of victimisation and it would just give them more feelings of justification for their behavior.

And more importantly, I'd rather this sickness of hate was an open wound rather than some hidden festering abscess. Better to be able to monitor and engage with it than have it growing in the darkeness. Better the devil you know - and I mean that in a very literal way, this is the product of diabolical twistedness to my mind.

Although, on the other hand Hitler was an open wound and that didn't save the world from him did it? Argh. I don't know. I doubt these people have that kind of greater power, but they could certainly ruin an individual with their violence.

Posted by muerk : 10/24/2006 11:43:00 AM

It seems the only reason the National Front idiots get any publicity at all is because it makes such lovely theatre for the television. Clearly these people have no political or popular support - there is no believable scenario where Kiwis would voluntarily vote for a bunch of mouth-breathing troglodytes who want to resurrect Nazism.

So while Redwatch is a bit disturbing, it's hardly a real threat - it's not about to incite normal people into some kind of right-wing vigilante activity. It's aimed at the already-committed National Front nut-jobs, who are probably quite capable of reading the phone book for themeselves and getting the relevant addresses and phone numbers. Which, after all, is where most of the information come from.

Or to look at it another way, maybe the purpose of Redwatch is simply to translate the phone book into language the mouth-breathers understand (clue: it involves lots of f-words) as they're simply not bright enough to manage the task themselves.

- Clarke

Posted by Anonymous : 10/24/2006 12:18:00 PM

Those rightwingers never fail to confuse me, as in why is the National Front labeled by them as the "NZ Homosexual Alliance" in their links? Do they not put put at Fuehrer Geburtstag parties? Do they look too fetching in boots?

Posted by Uroskin : 10/24/2006 03:32:00 PM

Has David Farrar seen the "Jew Watch" list?

"# 1. Asher Goldman
# 2. David Farrar"

They're coming to kill you!

Posted by Cnimmo : 10/24/2006 04:05:00 PM

Ahem, just found out why the National Front is labelled as the "NZ Homosexual Alliance" (I must admit I was secretly hoping it would have linked to my blog, but now I'm glad it was not). Mr Miller has fallen out with his pal Mr Wilson. Must have been the boots he was wearing to bed.

Posted by Uroskin : 10/24/2006 04:15:00 PM

heh, Red Watch is run by an idiot.

I have posted many a comment on his site, and he "for some reason" doesn't allow them to be posted?

Its funny how most (all?) neo-nazis go on about the freedom of speech, when they infact, limit what people can say, especially on a "growing website" such as that run by Nic Miller.

All in all, Nic Miller and all of his "mates" are just a bunch of uneducated people that follow the ideologies of a 1940s dipshit who killed himself :)

Posted by Antonio Broughton : 10/24/2006 05:15:00 PM

muerk - "sick and afraid" is the wrong reaction. Try "pity and revulsion".

When you look at the photos on Redwatch, you realise the neo-Nazi blow-hards actually have very little idea who is who at any of the protests. They can't name the people in most of the photos. (They can't even seem to get them in focus.)

These people are serious losers. Next time you see one IRL, just remember they're the people who *lost* WWII ... and in the 60 years since, have achieved precisely nothing.

When push comes to shove, the Jews, the blacks and every other race they despise (including most of the common, ordinary white folk they claim to represent) stood up and stomped them and their obnoxious creed into the dustbin of history. We tried their leaders at Nuremburg, and we vowed - successfully - that we would not let them rise again.

Treat them with the derision and contempt that such a sad bunch of losers deserve.

- Clarke

Posted by Anonymous : 10/24/2006 05:17:00 PM

i'm inclined to agree with anonymous. these dickheads crap on about 'the jews' and other 'undesirables' with the intent of keeping NZL (or somewhere) white and pure.

but if NZL does what they want, and purge the nation of non-whites, they're still the losers at the bottom of the heap.

neo-nazis i've come into contact with were inevitably p-smokers with no frickin clue. getting rid of black taxi-drivers isn't going to get these people to actually get out and get a grown-up job where you don't dress up in a costume and parade.

and now i mention it, 'costume', and 'parade'. no wonder they think each other queer.

Posted by che tibby : 10/24/2006 05:34:00 PM

Hmmm... I see from the above that I've been "outed".

They might very well think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Posted by Idiot/Savant : 10/24/2006 05:46:00 PM

I guess I could though. This is not my blog. I do not have the patience or stamina to blog this much, and this well. Despite our obvious political differences, it's quite an honour to be mistaken for you i/s :)

- John Anderson

Posted by Anonymous : 10/24/2006 06:28:00 PM

hey Johnny boy, we've got yer number too don't forget!

http://avoiceofdissent.blogspot.com/2006/04/random-red-rejects.html

you random red reject you!

Posted by anti-red : 10/24/2006 07:03:00 PM

John Anderson is Idiot/Savant. Oh man I am so confused.

I always thought he was Helen Clarke. Truely my mind spins...

Posted by terence : 10/24/2006 08:22:00 PM

For goodness sake, anti-red - posting a link to your own paranoid photo-gallery on I/S's blog ... how pathetic. Is this the only trackback you've managed this month?

And before you leap into print again, let me clear up a few misconceptions for all you neo-Nazi "revolutionaries":

1. Yes, there is a massive global left-wing conspiracy. Yes, I/S is a key part of our hidden agenda to control the thoughts of the populace. It's obviously working very effecticely (thanks for asking), as the only voice you have in the media is a collection of repetitive photographs and mis-spelled dribble on Blogger. The mainstream media ignore you - because we control the agenda. Get used to it.

2. Yes, there's also a global Jewish consipracy, and it did result in your lot losing WWII. As it turns out, when the revolution came it was your people - not ours - who were first against the wall. How sad.

3. Yes, us left-wing types who control the government and the media are intent on keeping you lot uninformed, poor and stupid. (Which in your case seems to have been even more successful than we'd hoped, based on the evidence of your blog.)

In short, you are the victim of a deliberate, orchestrated campaign of oppression and deception, inflicted by an unholy coalition of left-wing bloggers, treasonous journalists, self-serving politicians, international Jewry, the Black Panthers, every hip-hop artist you can name, your own cousin and my Aunt from up the road.

We hope you enjoy it.

Oh, and by the way - when we see your lot in the street, we think "wow, there goes New Zealand's master race" .... and laugh.

- Clarke

Posted by Anonymous : 10/24/2006 09:18:00 PM

Silly, I went to uni with I/S and he is clearly a 5'6" chesty redhead called Honey.

Or is that me... Now I'm confused.

And it's all very well not to be afraid when you feel secure, but even being followed down the street and having abuse yelled at you for being identifiably non-Christian I find kind of scary. I wouldn't be in a big hurry to out myself to these guys, either.

Posted by Ghet : 10/24/2006 09:23:00 PM

wow. can you claim any kind of fame for being outed by neo-nazis?

no one ever wanted to put me up on their site.

master race? master bates is more accurate.

Posted by che tibby : 10/24/2006 10:42:00 PM

Che please don't mention Andrew Bates, don't you know that he's like the Candyman, say his name three times....

Posted by Span : 10/25/2006 09:15:00 AM

Ghet: No, she's a 6'4" blonde called Blossom! Or is it Candy? Ahhh... so many zionist-homo-commie conspiritors so litte time.

But yes, these are not the people you want on your doorstep asking to have tea and buttered scones with you and your loved ones.

Posted by muerk : 10/25/2006 09:33:00 AM

muerk, dunno. it is almost halloween.

maybe they're just getting their costumes on early.

"oh, look at theez luverly boots nigel! they'd look grand tucked up in the bottom of my closet".

Posted by che tibby : 10/25/2006 10:57:00 AM

I'll leave talk of speech freedom here to phil101 students. Its all bull.

Talk of free speech rights is meaningless in the context of this discussion.

We are all big boys and girls here, and we all know what is really going on.

Far from being concerned with "robust discussion", and a "free and fair trade in ideas", we all know what the nazi little-drummer-boys are really interested in.

We know we are dealing with people who fantasize about causing violence. And occaisonally live out those fantasies.
They simply want to threaten and bully. They are knowingly and willingly contributing to an atmosphere of threat.
In the real, non-web world which we share with these moral infants, small-print disclaimers mean nothing.

The redwatch site serves a clear purpose. It is a community noticeboard for a violence-loving paranoid tribe who are used to the language of implicit yet clear threat.

If this site does contribute to real-world harm, like another beating, perhaps a death, the redwatch webmaster can smugly smile and claim that he had nothing to do with it. All the while knowing that he has provided a weapon as deadly as any baseball bat or kitchen-knife.

Posted by sunil : 10/25/2006 02:13:00 PM

Nice post Clark mate. I am actually in Australia but a couple of the contributors of the Patriot Alliance Downunder are from NZ though.

Also, tell David Farrar, he just scored himself a spot on the random red rejects page!

congrats!

http://avoiceofdissent.blogspot.com/2006/04/random-red-rejects.html

Posted by anti-red : 10/25/2006 04:47:00 PM

these sick fucks dont represent any part of a Dr Brash agenda.

Their website would not stand up to scrutiny in any court of law. It is clearly meant to intimidate.

I/S - people with google could get to it. but it is interesting to see that there are people on the streets of nz with some pretty fundamental psychological problems.

Posted by sagenz : 10/26/2006 03:34:00 AM

Im sure they get thrill from their ability to scare protesters into wearing masks. They live and breath taht sort of [publicity - which is pretty undeserved since heir threat level is probably almost zero.

It is what being a neonazi is about - if you didnt scare anyone waht is the point.

"cheers" to all who have got together to givethe nazis this level of respect and publicity.

Posted by Anonymous : 10/26/2006 10:27:00 PM